The conversation took place in Dublin, though Dr Liam Hennessy can’t remember exactly where. He was chatting to Dessie Farrell of the GPA and Farrell said sport should be enshrined in the Constitution, that the potential benefits to the country were immeasurable.

Sport has never appeared to be a political priority, but Farrell was preaching to the converted. Hennessy has prepared elite teams in Gaelic games, soccer and international rugby, never mind his own successful career in athletics and founding Setanta College, which offers courses in sports performance.

Who better to ask about government involvement in sport? Over tea in a Ballina hotel, Hennessy gave his view.

“Going back to when they started in the sixties, all those central government sport and health programmes have a common denominator, which isn’t surprising as they’re all trying to do the same thing.

“They try to assess effectiveness by taking measurements, and you can use BMI, VO2 Max — remember the bleep tests, years ago — and the goal is still the same. Improve the fitness by measuring with clear markers and metrics.

“You’re basically promoting two very simple things. More activity and fewer calories taken in. More of one, less of the other. Very simple. We know the equation. You’ll lose weight and be healthier.”

“And yet it can’t be done. Since the sixties, no programme has been effective. Short-term interventions, no problem. Take someone who knows Christmas is coming — the pounds come down and then back up again to the previous level, the cycle continues.

“Yet we know obesity levels are climbing, and ergo fitness is falling. Tinkering with programmes, they’re not working. They don’t deliver.

“If I knew why I’d be wrong not to share it, but I don’t know why. That’s the reality. But at least if you start with that reality, it’s a start.”

One thing that could be learned from sport is to abandon the traditional notion of a fit person, says Hennessy.

“You see some funny shapes in sport, people that you think, ‘hmm, that’s not the classical shape of an athlete’. That player looks a bit overweight — classically a rugby prop, say — but the player may still be fit enough to play the game.

“So I think we have to step back and consider what we mean by someone being ‘fit’. We have to revise that because it hasn’t worked.

“Accepting that someone can be overweight and fit . . . that takes a bit of adjustment of mindset, but the reality is that that’s most likely the case. Thin, lean and unfit is a serious condition — and it is a condition — while a lot of people are a bit overweight but fit and healthy.

“We haven’t evolved on that. Since the sixties we’ve had the idea that being thin, lean, fitting into a 28-inch-waist pants is fit. Our image of what health and fitness is hasn’t changed, and it probably should. It should respect that carrying a few pounds is acceptable — not being grossly overweight, obviously — but a few extra pounds is acceptable if you’re active.

“Moving everything, and being able to move everything, is key. If I can squeeze in and out of a tight space here, with the table, at 70 or 80 years of age, then I’m fit.

“Our notion of what represents fitness hasn’t been reset, it’s the same as it was in the sixties, yet we have never had more data and technology and information about fitness.

“That notion hasn’t worked, but if we reset that and take the person with a few extra pounds but who’s active as fit, that’s a start.”

We also need to broaden our understanding of sport to include communities. Hennessy has an obvious example to hand: “Access to recreational activity is good now.

“Take Operation Transformation, which has a fair hold on communities. It’s a pity it’s a short window, but there are spin-offs. Community trails exist now which give opportunities which weren’t there before. If we can facilitate those . . . the notion of the gym is fine, but there are plenty of other opportunities for activity apart from that.

“Sport is the one thing that has kept our generation healthy but we won’t be able to play competitive sports into our fifties, while the walking trails are there now.

“If we forget about those few pounds but make it easy for individuals to be active, communities can do that. And if we encourage more communities to do that, and help them with sponsorship, that all helps.

“Look at the 5Ks, the Park Runs, there are community groups which now have a different emphasis, an emphasis on getting people involved. And it’s not filtered through one sport only.

“That’s more of a European outlook anyway, like France, where all the sports are played in a municipal facility and there isn’t an isolationist tendency.”

The community can reach into the home, too.

“We tend to say ‘what is the school doing, what is the coach doing’, but what about parents? I know when the kids get to the teen years the parents aren’t quite the role models they were, but the parent’s role is huge, though the tendency is to let teachers and coaches look after the physical activities of our kids.”

This brings Hennessy to another strand of his thinking on sport. The importance of participation versus the elite athlete.

“Long-term pathway development can do a lot of good, but the default is always the elite — we got this person through to the international team, the county team, etc.

“But only one team can win a county title. We need to rethink that but it’s a very hard mindset to break for the development pathway.

“You can have a participation pathway that’s healthy and enjoyable and yes, an elite one running off it. The competitive people will always gravitate towards that, but where do the bulk of the resources go, to the elite side rather than the participation side.

But if you can keep people involved in sport, in participation, they reap the benefits, society in turn reaps the benefits down the line.”

Hennessy acknowledges the criticism he’s seen directed at elite academies: “My view is that it’s (the academy) just one track, one strand, and it’s often run very poorly. That’s because it’s often run without a participation track running alongside it.

“And the development shouldn’t be linear, but cyclical so that if you don’t like the elite element you can always move into the other. The two need to move hand in hand from the year dot, because if they don’t you’re missing out. You’re not delivering what sport has the potential to deliver.

“If we see sport as just winning a title then a manager has a problem because only one team can win that title every year, so we need to have a much broader view.”

Hennessy points out that that was Dessie Farrell’s view, — not just to have one team win, but to keep people involved in the sport on a long-term basis.

“Sports associations don’t cater for that. It’s ‘goodbye and good luck’ when you finish. There’s a huge amount that could be done to tidy that up, because it’s a very narrow interpretation of what is a very good idea.

“The principles of any model for development are hugely important. Principles such as ‘let’s be active first and foremost’ or ‘let’s have fun for those who want fun primarily’.

“Models for development have focused on tactical development, physical development, technical development — development needs to include developing the person, social interaction, all of that.

“There’s a change in the way those sports development pathways are being viewed, but it took long enough for them to be brought in and it’ll also take a long time for the broader understanding to come in. I haven’t seen any sport yet take on the broader pathway model.

W

hich is where we came in. Hennessy is unhappy with the performance of Shane Ross, Minister for Sport, Tourism and Transport.

“If sport were recognised in the Constitution, that would lead to recognition in budgets, and at departmental level. “We have to mature in our recognition of sport and its importance. It mightn’t be politically correct to say so but I can’t figure out how we have a Minister for Sport who can’t remember Sanita Puspure’s name, or who hasn’t the most fundamental understanding of what sport means.

“Those little examples may be little examples but they keep happening, and there’s a mismatch between our passion for sport and the commitment given to it at that level. Sport seems just thrown in, really.

“There’s tourism in sport and there’s sport in tourism, but the minister for finance, say, is the minister for finance, not minister for finance and health. They’re seen as serious.

“This goes back to Dessie’s point about enshrining it in the Constitution, and its power in keeping the population healthy.”

If they need some advice, there’s a man near Lough Derg worth consulting.